Space Law

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by RebelAmerica, Jul 3, 2014.

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  1. Theodysseygamer

    Theodysseygamer Active Member

    You'd be surprised at how many would do this to bend the rules to their will.

    Also I just had the thought of having an ASBO system in place where if you're being anti-social aka fighting, slipping, vandalism, stealing etc. instead of a sentence you could be given the option(Im not really sure on the being given an option bit but im just throwing it out there) of an ASBO implant which goes on the record and could be like a green implant or something that comes up on the secHUD glasses to notify sec of the ASBO, once given an ASBO implant every crime you commit can be +5 for petty crimes or +10 for medium crimes or something depending on the crime and removal of the ASBO implant will warrant a lengthy sentence and a re-implanting but if for 20/30 minutes you cause sec and the crew no grief aka you become social the implant can be removed and your record wiped clean and you're good to go.

    Why I think this could work is because it is a fun way of handling cases and is a good deterrent because you're pretty much 100% likely to get more time for crimes because sec will know you have an ASBO(sort of like repeat offender but an easier way) and they can work towards having the implant removed and being cool with sec, even if they go and commit crimes after the implant is removed, the crew still get 20/30 minutes of no crimes because people don't want their crime times doubled or tripled and the way this is different from space laws repeat offender is because people are not just stripped naked and thrown into jail with a long hefty sentence to wait out and be super butt mad at sec because they don't get a word spoken to them, the ASBO is talked to about and can be fully understood of the consequences.

    I don't expect this idea to be a success, I mean its a nice idea but is hard to implement and has a lot of downsides i'm just throwing in out there to be judged, ripped apart and thrown back at me. :D
  2. Chillyspace422

    Chillyspace422 Well-Known Member

    I hear a lot of "LolnobodywouldbendspacelawONPURPOSElolno" and I call BS, we have badcurity, hardcore, it's not just some itchy feeling in the back of some guys head, drowned ouy by nice thoughts. Badcurity is probably 3rd most violent, lasting, and game ruining thing this server has to offer. We have some goodcoats, who usually all become perseus, but they are drowned out. Every time you say nobody would abuse within serv rules cuz' lul nubudy is tht meen, a person is abused within the rules!

    Donate 2 STAHP THE ABOOSE PLZ . Orgy
    Mindtrixx likes this.
  3. I have to say, I have seen a number of people claim that this server is plagued by shitcurity, but I have to contest that.

    I sometimes play security, I sometimes play as an extremely annoying clown, and I sometimes play as a normal crew civilian member.

    As a law-abiding crew member I actually have NEVER been harassed by security for no reason on LLA. I didn't even realize this until I thought about it for the purpose of this post, but it is actually incredible to me. I can't say the same thing about any other server that I have played on.

    As an annoying clown, I have, on several occasions, deliberately attempted suicide by cop and/or have made my goal to be permabrigged without committing a capital crime. I would do things like run around with red space suits, toy energy swords, cap guns and so on, while screaming threatening things, masking myself with a balaclava and hiding an ID to make me unknown, dragging a suicide corpse, etc. No security officer has ever taken the bait, much to my shock, as I have been brigged, tortured and killed by security on every other server I've played on for much less.

    On the contrary, playing as security on LLA has consistently been an exercise in masochism where nearly every round, no matter how much I attempt to be a helpful, approachable, friendly pillar of the station community, I end up with half the crew declaring war on me, I end up legitimately permabrigging multiple subjects for capital crimes (if I am not murdered before I'm able to do so) while being subjected to a torrent of abuse and juggling ahelps constantly (I have never once gotten in trouble for anything I have done as security because I do not brig or use force unjustly, but brigged people complain to admins and they have to investigate) and then at round end I realize that none of the people I spend my entire round quarrelling with were antags.

    Now, security will unfortunately ALWAYS be a job that will attract rookie players for their first round who do not read wikis or server rules and have no idea what they are doing. Shitcurity will always be present to some extent. However I really think that the quality of security staff on LLA is relatively decent compared to most servers I have played, while by contrast this is one of the most difficult servers to play security on based on the proportion of violent psychopaths in the non-sec playerbase and the fact that security and heads are the only players held to any real standards. Ironically I think that the sure amount of shit sec players have to deal with probably makes them far less likely to be abusive to innocent people, if only because they don't have time to do so.
  4. Okay, I had an experience today that I find relevant both to the Space Law reform question and the "shitcurity" point.

    I was the captain. Within 5 minutes of the round, the armory was being robbed, an IED was thrown at the HoP's office, the HoS's office was looted, the bridge and captain's quarters were broken into, the HoP was handing out all access (and fake IDs with other names and titles) and advertising this over the announcement system, multiple people attempted to break into the brig through the cells and front doors, and the AI was ignoring my orders and mocking me. This is only what I was able to witness/hear about/process, I'm sure even more was going on. The HoS and I arrested the armory looter and I arrested and demoted the HoP (I also ahelped the HoP). The one order of mine that the AI did follow was to call the shuttle on a few occasions, which he did only after arguing, and he made some commentary about how I was incompetent while doing it. It kept getting recalled by some guy who had broken into the bridge, and the AI was officially recognizing the other guy as another captain. A few sec officers showed up mid-round, only after things were well beyond out of control. The entire crew went on and on for the whole shift about how me and the HoS were incompetent/unrobust/impotent/idiots because we were "allowing" so much shit to happen (even though it was essentially me and the HoS vs the entire crew, and we were being further handicapped by being held to standards while they were not).

    This was an EXTENDED round and the AI was Asimov.

    Two things:
    -If you think "badcurity" is one of the server's biggest problems, you haven't been paying attention.
    -Higher sentences will do NOTHING. Security and heads do not have enough resources to deal with all the shit that happens in a typical round. Permabrigging/execution/borging are the only sentences that matter, and if the rules permitting them became more relaxed, heads and sec would just get overthrown every round. Look at the scenario I mentioned: does anyone out there think that if sentences were longer that would have resolved anything?
  5. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything you said. There is NO shitcurity. Assistants are attracting more newbies and experienced security members are leaving to perseus because of it.

    Yesterday, I had a guy that threw IED's at the brig for no reason, one even exploded below me and took away half of my health. What now? You can't permabrig him for the first crime. You have to put him in a broken cell for 10 minutes, release him, and protect yourself again from others releasing him and him throwing IED's at me when released. Note that it is a "IC" issue to destroy the brig for no reason and to almost kill someone just because they can.

    Personally, I do. But we will find it out when the LLA space law takes effect. It is easy to revert back.
    QuantumWings likes this.
  6. Mindtrixx

    Mindtrixx Well-Known Member

    Actually this is grand sabotage and you can permabrig people who bomb the brig 4norasins if I'm not mistaken.

    :Grand Sabotage:​
    Bombing, arson, releasing viruses, deliberately exposing areas to space, physically destroying machinery or electrifying doors all count as Grand Sabotage.​
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  7. Still bullshit that it is considered only an IC issue. And the player actually was charged with grand sabotage (and in the ban request against him he acted like even that was absurd).

    Infernus, for what it's worth I'm totally behind you on that ban request and was surprised by the "IC issue" response, even by the standards of this server.
    QuantumWings and Infernus44 like this.
  8. NoFaceMan

    NoFaceMan Guest

    Bombing counts when bomb makes big hole not like using firework what only damaged floor.
  9. Mindtrixx

    Mindtrixx Well-Known Member

    If this were true, that we're only allowed to permabrig for tile-deletion type bombs, then someone please write the law to where it says that. For now however, feel free to grant perma to those who bomb places and just link spacelaw if ahelped until a formal decision has been made and announced.

    In my opinion, we should be allowed to perma over IEDs as they render the bombed areas unusable to some extent.
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  10. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member

    And what than? He will log of to another server and come back after the round is over, which actually happened.
    QuantumWings likes this.
  11. NoFaceMan

    NoFaceMan Guest

    If IED can make hull-breach or its explosion has big blast radious it could be grand sabotage if it can only a bit harm player/ not delete floor but damage it a bit like it can be fixed with welder its not grand sabotage but vandalism.
  12. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member

    As security with full armor, it took away half of my health. The blast radius is about 4*4 area, and if you throw it near the brig, you will have a 100% chance to expose the electric grills.
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  13. Mindtrixx

    Mindtrixx Well-Known Member

    Perma him again and ahelp him for grief. Say you know this player, he did the same thing last round, and he did it again with no justification. He'll likely corner himself with a metegrudge-like excuse and the admins will take it from there. A lot of things continue to happen because we don't ahelp it, that or there is no admins on for long periods of time (still).

    I would not say its vandalism, as Infernus said it exposes electric grilles. If electrifying doors counts as Grand Sabotage, exposing grilles in a hallway people often run down full speed and stop at the windows seems pretty dangerous.

    To engage in maliciously destructive actions, seriously threatening crew or station.
    Grilles can crit people, putting someone into a coma is seriously threatening the crew.

    (remember old brig? people ran into those grilles all the time, heh.)
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  14. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member

    Look at Richard. He attacks security every round, steals from armory, stuns and loots captains and others. And guess what, IC issue.
    QuantumWings likes this.
  15. Mindtrixx

    Mindtrixx Well-Known Member

    Sadly being a dick isn't against the rules, ruining other people's rounds is allowed to some extent. I've heard lots of complaints about this in dead/ooc its probably the biggest issue here.

    To move this back on topic: Changing space law won't fix this issue, its a admin/player relation issue. Adding more IC issues is not going to stop the regular criminals. They are used to ghosting when perma'd and they know how to break out of regular jails.

    People need to adminhelp more.

    Admins need to start feeling out why criminals actually do their crimes, because I feel "Because I wanted to/it" is just being masked by lame excuses.

    (DISCLAIMER) I am not an admin, I do not know the process in which they question the griffons. This is not a jab at anyone, merely a suggestion based off what I feel is happening behind the scenes.
    Infernus44 likes this.
  16. CannibalCrow

    CannibalCrow LS13 Admin Staff Member

    I'm not entirely certain what post you're talking about(Busy the past few days), but what it sounds like is that someone used a small bomb that did little damage to break into the brig.

    We don't have some standard where "If it doesn't delete tiles it isn't against the rules". What it really comes down to is "What sort of effect did this have on the round and the people nearby?". Even a small bomb capable of destroying only a single tile could easily kill someone. If that happened to kill a person, it would be far from legit. However, this sounds comparable to blowing up welder fuel to blow open the brig, something I wouldn't ban for except for a circumstance where it caused an absurd amount of disruption in people's rounds.

    Basically what it comes down to(for me at least) in a situation like this, is the question of how much it impacted the round. If it was a bomb of any size more than just say, two-three tiles, I would immediately jump on it. If it were smaller, I would take the time to consider the circumstance a little more and judge whether or not it was necessary to ban for it. It sounds like the latter happened here.

    Also, I agree completely with Mindtrixx. The thing I see wrong with this space law is it was created for the purpose of trying to stop a certain playstyle. Not for the purpose of enriching the round, not for the purpose of giving security a little more balancing power, but from what I've seen, simply because "Some of us don't like seeing people running around causing trouble. Lets make them sit out half the round for anything., resulting in, with some cases, massive boosts in time. To me this seems more like slapping a lot of time on things you don't like to see, more than it does trying to create a good Crime/Punishment ratio.

    First off, it's not going to stop the crimes. People are just going to continue doing them, except when they now get brigged for half an hour, there's going to be a lot more unhappy players. Which in a way seems like the goal. "Make the players who do these things unhappy so they'll stop doing these things". Something which goes against part of what our server has been about for ages. I could walk into the bar, take a bottle of alcohol and then run from the Security Officers trying to arrest me, and be locked in the bridge for like, half the round. That's massive, and incredibly disproportionate, in my opinion.

    I'm for the idea of boosting time spent in the brig in certain cases, but I think it needs to be considered a lot more carefully rather than just "Lets just boost everything up by like, ten minutes."
  17. Raptorblaze

    Raptorblaze Head Coder Staff Member

    If he used an IED (sounds like it) it would effective be similiar to a welderbomb from old source. I believe it's a -1, 0, 2 explosion?
  18. Chillyspace422

    Chillyspace422 Well-Known Member

    I have been paying attention. We have some really bad security, and quite often most of the time. A lot of the time you can get through a round without pissing off an officer, and if there is another officer, who is good, you can usually not be subjected to terribadness, but is a problem on the server, and it is one of the larger ones.
  19. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member

    6 IEDs were thrown at brig, where 2 of them were aimed at us officers, last one didn't exploded as he was stunned.
    Each cell was exposed to electric grilles and they were open, so they can't be used. One IED landed in front of warden's office, and exposed the grille there too. All that because he wanted to go rob the armory as assistant. The whole brig was fucked and us two almost died. (If that last one wasn't stopped at time, it dropped on the floor when we stunned him)

    We were shitcurity than, of course! We weren't capable of brigging anyone without dragging them to perma cell for their regular crimes. There was a clan of cavemans fucking with us because of that.

    Yeah, they are like 3*3 or 4*4 minor explosion, but they take away half of your health in full security gear.

    Your play style, officers and space law don't force you to steal stuff and ruin others round.

    I agree with this, keep minor theft and minor vandalism 2 minute crime, while other serious ones boosted up.

    What is your suggestion to change the space law without changing the time?

    Some of us don't like people who take away half of our round dealing with them. Let them destroy our workplace for IC reason and let's look stupid than for the community.
    Look at Richard, he does it all the time, he always gets "handled" but he can still do it the IC way. I'm sorry for my language, but fuck off from the "dickish or *IC*" perspective and look at the security perspective once in a while. Security is tolerated as shit on this server, they can't do anything to the crew, while they can do everything to them. Fuck "Freedom" on this server if one part of the players can do what ever they want, while other part of players are their "Fun" tools and can't do shit.
  20. Jayce Wise

    Jayce Wise Head LS13 Admin Staff Member

    Most of the shitcurity I see (and I DO see shitcurity) stems from preemptive attempts to stop a grey tide. I find that the worst thing you can do as sec is take the bait when the inevitable tiders show up to the brig. Something that I find tends to work is to simply give people a slap on the wrist the first time that they fuck with you. If they don't leave you alone after that, then they deserve to go in for the full weight of their crimes. If you ignore the abuse as security,and just go easy on the people who fuck with you, then they have no reason to cry shitcurity (no matter how legitimate or illegitimate).
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