Security and Borderline Grief

Discussion in 'General' started by JPR, Feb 8, 2015.

  1. Keone2

    Keone2 Active Member

    [quote="Infernus44, post: 53696, member: 32]"expect to get stripped of everything and cuffed for the rest of the round, or get killed for trying to keep the offenders out.[/quote]

    This is why people riot. :/
  2. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    I see. That's not borderline grief... but REALLY stupid when they're RELEASING you... I'd call that malicious.
    QuantumWings and IMVader like this.
  3. ProbablyBaron

    ProbablyBaron BANNED

    Do I need to write a How To: Labor Camp?
    Felix Feufer, IMVader and JPR like this.
  4. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    Okay, I'll wait :)
  5. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    YES. (No, really)
    (Okay, NOW I'll wait.:( )
  6. ProbablyBaron

    ProbablyBaron BANNED

    I'll actually write a How To: Labor Camp if it's that confusing of a process? I love being sent to labor camp as a prisoner more than being stuffed in a cell.
    IMVader, Flatoftheblade and JPR like this.
  7. I still can't wrap my head around the standards of this server, after being here almost a year.

    If someone is going to full strip me and disposal me, they may as well just kill me because they have effectively ended my round. So why is that a standard behavior that players can get away with doing every single round (as long as they don't play roles of responsibility), while killing is considered not kosher? This has never made sense to me and I've never seen it intelligently articulated. Basically all I've heard is "IF a competent and helpful person rescues you and IF there is a competent and helpful HoP and IF there are competent and helpful people in your department and IF there is still extra gear lying around you MIGHT be able to keep playing the round normally if you put in half an hour of work sorting yourself out and you don't get attacked again."
  8. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member

    This is why people riot. :/[/quote]

    Well, sadly, SPACE LAW is a rulebook to grey tiders, with each timer description explaining how to maul an officer.
    Assualt 5 minutes?
    More like fullstrip/disposal the officer for IC reasons!
    QuantumWings, NoFaceMan and JPR like this.
  9. Flavo

    Flavo Well-Known Member

    I agree JPR. that sounds like a much more efficent way to handle things, resolution with the victim themself
    Personally i think security policies need work I believe when it comes to ahelps they should be treated a bit like incident reports, you provide all the context and the admin works with you to figure out if there was a fault somewhere using the many investigation tools we have, In cases of blatant grief it should be obvious. Officers who have good intentions shouldn't need to worry about "If you win riot = banned" and quite honestly i think there should be a crackdown on officers who play as officer to grief or find IC excuses to be a total asshat but at the same time leeway should be given to a officer who is really just trying to secure the station.
    Infernus i must say we both have the same goals in mind just different ways of reaching them. for one, I'm not quite sure if you know what borderline grief is, In the past you have complained about certain cases where people would IED into the brig to get weaponry or to screw with security and in these cases I must agree yeah that can be a problem. However in the particular referenced case It was IC retaliation.

    Borderline Grief is griefing within the rules. Grief is OOC intent to ruin the game for everyone, reasonable retaliation to a IC action is not OOC intent.

    My way to achieve the goal you and me both strive for is to loosen the grip on security's neck a little and allow some leeway on officers. to quote space law
    And if its the intent of the crew member to see the station burn and be little de facto antags they should be prepared to reap the consequence of these actions. Permabrigings should be issuable by captain or HOS and they shouldn't have to be restricted just to capital crimes. If all rehabilitation methods have been exhausted then they should be able to be permabrigged due to being a danger to the crew.

    As i said in the thread and it was completely missed, if you are abusing the technicalities to grief you will be dealt with the same. Getting yourself purposefully arrested so you can "legitly retaliate" will be dealt with and has been dealt with in the past

    And from the looks of it there seems to be a general consensus that people will lie, cheat, and say they can to get away with said baiting and griefing. and there seems to be no faith that proper investigations can be done, to which i say perhaps we should be a bit harder on lying. By adminhelping you agree to the terms that everything you say is truthful and honest. everything is noted. records/patterns are observed.
    JPR likes this.
  10. CannibalCrow

    CannibalCrow LS13 Admin Staff Member

    One thing I'm going to point out is that Labor Camp is flawed as is and no player should be blamed for its state.

    People who are labor camped shouldn't be criticized for not min-maxing their mining methods, particularly if they don't know HOW.

    Security officers shouldn't necessarily be criticized for using labor camp when technically they're within full rights of space law to do so.

    This isn't me saying yes, people can fuck with sec officers for being punished, nor am I saying that the labor camp is good to be used by Sec in all situations. I'm simply saying, the Labor Camp is fucked up and needs to be fixed, which is already being handled elsewhere, I believe. Lets focus less on the labor camp.
    IMVader, Flatoftheblade and JPR like this.
  11. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    Can I PM you a skype log after this?
    I like what you're saying here. It just kinda needs to be implemented. I don't think people will lie, I just think they'll... "forget" certain information when talking to admins, which puts all the pressure on the CRIMINAL SCUM beleaguered officer to deal with the admin PM's
  12. Flavo

    Flavo Well-Known Member

    Raptorblaze likes this.
  13. IMVader

    IMVader Well-Known Member

    Ok, there are many point of views. I leave mine:

    To my understanding looting people rendering them unable to perform their jobs, or demoting, is only legit if they have been abusing their tools or access or not doing their jobs. For chemists it means making meds and not making lube or polyacid with good reasons, for engineers is setting the engine and repairing stuff, and for security it is following space law.

    What does this mean? That as long as you do your job properly you are protected from non-antags stealing your access and ability to keep doing it. That if you are an assistant and security harmbatons you, leaves you bucklecuffed or brigs you for crimes you did not commit, then you can come back later and demote them. But if they give you not a minute or labor point more than what you deserved as prescribed by space law then you'll have to be creative and find other ways to execute your revenge. Same as you'd do with that engineer that refused to give you insulated gloves, or the roboticist that denied you a flash.

    I was convinced that was how things worked in the server, but if Flavored's interpretation is correct then I was quite wrong.
  14. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    Okay. As far as I know, that's NOT the case. Anyone can stun you and take your stuff, if they can get away with it (that's what sec(and MOB) are MEANT to deal with).
  15. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member


    You can't get revenge over someone who had done nothing to you.

    I don't see how your way is any better by allowing them demote every officer for any arrest made.
  16. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    Don's on his way! mebbeh...
  17. CannibalCrow

    CannibalCrow LS13 Admin Staff Member

    This is more a personal gripe of mine, but I'll be completely blunt. In my opinion, this is complete, utter bologna. It's an idea that I've been against in pretty much all of my time adminning. The idea that being stripped pretty much ruins your round. How? Honestly, how. In no way, shape, or form is that similar to being killed. Worst case, you get disposaled and end up in the mail room. More often than not, that rarely lasts more than a few minutes, particularly considering there's an intercom in there, or an AI who will let you out. Or just someone passes by. OR there happens to be something disposaled that you can use to bust through the windows. All in all, hardly even remotely similar to being killed, and hardly round ruining. As for the idea the abloo, losing my ID ruins my round!! If I can run around as an assistant every other round and still enjoy the hell out of myself, how is losing an ID round ruining? Get it back. Get a different one. Break in. Your round isn't over.

    Again, this is just my personal gripe. Not really an administrative decision.

    Besides that though, I'll be giving a ruling here relatively shortly.
  18. Flavo

    Flavo Well-Known Member

    My way is to allow sec to be more strict on destructive crew members and use there right to use space law as a guideline rather then set in stone facts. pretty much if your up to trouble and get arrested be ready to face security, look for lawyers to bail you out.
    Felix Feufer likes this.
  19. Just getting flushed down disposals, in itself, is in no way round-ruining. Just getting an ID or some gear stolen, in itself, is in no way round-ruining. The combination of losing every item you have and getting disposalled is indeed round-ruining, because you *require* other people (plural) to be competent and helpful to get back on track. By the same logic, if you die you can "just" have someone find and clone you.
  20. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member

    But not everyone enjoys doing that to other people, you know. If someone does this to you, you have to do it to other people to get your round back?
    Felix Feufer and JPR like this.

Share This Page