Security and Borderline Grief

Discussion in 'General' started by JPR, Feb 8, 2015.

  1. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

  2. Flavo

    Flavo Well-Known Member

  3. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    No, but I can put it here!
    Okay. As it stands, it seems to be easy for non-sec to borderline grief sec, as sec has rules and admin-enforced compliance. Apparently, a brig sentence can be viewed as an "IC escalation". I DISAGREE with this on the basis that the sec force is ALREADY held accountable OOC directly by the admins through ADMINPM- "Why's he brigged?". I think that space law sentences EITHER should be treated as OOC for escalation of force... OR that sec should be allowed to escalate THEIR treatment of prisoners (harmbaton in brig). I REALLY would rather the OOC one.
  4. CannibalCrow

    CannibalCrow LS13 Admin Staff Member

    First of all, the way you state that Sec Force is held accountable because we PM to clarify why they were brigged makes some bizarre implication that they're..What. Not allowed to brig people? No. The only reason we asked 'Why is he brigged' is to get a clearer understanding of... Why he was brigged. It's not an accusation, it's not us saying you're wrong, and in many cases security officers are let be when they say "He stole something". K. Done. Legitimate brigging. A legitimate brigging can absolutely easily fall under IC-escalation. There's no sort of conflict here.

    Secondly, allowed sec to openly break space law with the idea of escalation, is to be blunt, a terrible idea. What is the point of having a force on the station meant to uphold rules if they themselves are allowed to break said rules willy-nilly? Additionally, why in the world would you want to perpetuate shitty security? Of all the things you guys complain about on the server, you want to encourage poor behavior by security on top of that? What?

    You'll also have to clarify what it is you mean by "OOC escalation of force" because that kind doesn't make sense.
  5. Right so...the current OOC and IC dynamic surrounding command and security makes zero sense. It was already not entirely reasonable that security and command had relatively strict admin-enforced restrictions on their behavior (to the point where even actions within the bounds of Space Law would be viewed as questionable and requiring articulation regularly) while the crew had free reign to do nearly any sort of antagonistic act short of status alteration.

    There was supposedly a move to address "borderline grief," but now Cactus is saying that lawful arrests and sentences constitute "IC escalation" that legitimize what would otherwise be "borderline grief" and that the only thing that is still hands off under such circumstances is status alteration. This position is, quite frankly, idiotic and does not take into account some very obvious broader implications of the decision. Essentially this ruling means that simply being a command or security member constitutes "IC escalation" and the "bordeline grief" rules that extend to players in other roles do not extend to sec and command, who already are held to higher standards of conduct OOC. This is a terrible ruling that sets a terrible precedent.
  6. I interpreted that to mean that security's trigger fingers should be loosened when dealing with grey tiders and anti-sec metagrudgers in combat/riot situations, rather than sanctioning prisoner abuse.

    I also thought that the "OOC escalation of force" line was intended to indicate that a lawful arrest should not be considered a valid IC reason for escalation and should be viewed as metagrudgy, which I agree with.

    I'll let him clarify this, but if I misunderstood JPR's post, I'll retract my "like."
    QuantumWings and JPR like this.
  7. Flavo

    Flavo Well-Known Member

    I think putting more rule restrictions is pretty counter-productive and over complicates things more then it already is. The suggestion to make it so you cant retaliate if its a legit sentence will lead to more issues where admins have to decide "what is fair to retaliate" You will see more cases like this "Ok the officer gave me labor camp over theft and b&e, i got stuck mining for well over 30 minutes? am i allowed to retaliate?" "No, they were within there rights, you are not allowed to do anything about it, just take it maybe next time"

    I think the solution to all this is probably finding a way to balance it. Currently retaliation and riots are "All to gain, nothing to lose". Perhaps make it somehow where retaliation could be "Something to gain, all to lose" If you wanna fight for something it better be hella worth it. Currently where we stand is if you win a riot, you just won a riot and are praised, if you lose a riot, you get a ban request and thrown peanut at.
  8. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    OOC WITH REGARDS to escalation of force.
    As for PM's, it really does seem like an accusation, especially when if admins don't like the answers, they will make you, or admin release prisoners.
    As for breaking laws, with REPEAT offenders... WHY NOT. Light RP, everyone messes with the defanged sec, they get called SHITCURITY ROGUE EVERY ROUND... If I were called that every round... and the rules were IC... I'd make sure they KNEW what shitcurity was. As for encouraging poor behavior, well... we don't get much admin backup and are "held to a higher standard". If space law was IC... after the second offense, I'd get serious if I KNOW that the prisoner will just keep escalating till he kills me and I get a response of "Legit. IC issue". I WANT AN ACTUAL IC ISSUE IF I HAVE TO HAVE ONE :p
  9. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    Make it a blanket "NOT ok to retaliate for prison sentences, with POSSIBLE exceptions, depending on if the sentence was too long"
    As of now, I'm getting exactly the opposite feeling, and that prison is a "valids" excuse.
    QuantumWings likes this.
  10. You already have to make subjective judgements in any case. As I discussed with the "metagrudging" issue, that would require investigation, context, thought, subjective judgement, etc. The supposed "borderline grief" crackdown is a subjective matter as well; all I'm saying is that "borderline grief" restrictions should still apply when command/security are the victims and that lawful arrests should in no way remove their protections.
    IMVader likes this.
  11. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    Also... Space Law is SUPPOSED to be a shield, where if you throw it away, you lose any possible protection you could get.
    As of now, if you DON'T follow space law... BAN/ADMIN RELEASE, not lose protection.
    If you DO follow space law... you still get PM'd to check on it (like a freaking criminal...) and if you are killed by someone you arrested later... "Legit, IC escalation". NO SHIELD.
    Can this be fixed?
  12. Keone2

    Keone2 Active Member

    Gets sent to labor camp for 10 minutes worth of crimes>Spends the next 40 minutes off station mining>Treated like trash> My time is up> Disarm the bringing officer for trying to escort me out with a baton> Get sent back>50 minutes of my life wasted again> get out steals baton and steal officers ID> Win Banned or Loss Perma Brig/execution/beatentodeathincuffs.
    Saint Vicious and Flavo like this.
  13. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    Why 40 min? Dig sand. Easy. Also, why would you disarm the officer bringing you out? Little iffy there.
    QuantumWings and IMVader like this.
  14. Keone2

    Keone2 Active Member

    Not everyone is going to know they can dig sand, which include new players. This basically sends new players away.
    Saint Vicious likes this.
  15. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    Hmmm. Fair enough. Rework mining? Add in a sign that says that AT the mining station? REMOVE mining? Any of those.
    Still, why would you disarm the officer taking you out?
    I don't use labor also, but can you get out by yourself, or just take the shuttle back?
    IMVader likes this.
  16. ProbablyBaron

    ProbablyBaron BANNED

    Addressing a quote from Flavo on the original thread.

    Labor camp isn't just iron and diamonds. A single iron ore block contains 3 iron ore and 5 sand, which is 8 points. A single normal block contains 5 sand, which is 5 points. You can optimally destroy 6 blocks simultaneously, which can range from 30-48 points + 15-24 for destroying the 3 blocks to give you the optimal 6 block pattern (A total of 45-72). You can also optimally dig 9 sand blocks simultaneously, which is 45 points.
    IMVader likes this.
  17. Keone2

    Keone2 Active Member

    It's just the way I learned to play, if someone is going to baton you, maybe it's a good idea to disarm them preventing them doing it. Once you do that you have to go all the way by taking the ID to get out of labor area. Then if their is a competent team then RIP after that.
    Flavo likes this.
  18. Infernus44

    Infernus44 Well-Known Member

    I really don't see how it would be counter productive for security and server if you start enforcing borderline grief. They are getting mauled for arresting someone every second, since it is "IC escalation" for them to do their job. Security serves no purpose rather than defending the brig from shitheads that are mad for getting arrested over legitimate stuff.

    Riots are also the reason why no one plays security. If someone starts a riot, either expect to get stripped of everything and cuffed for the rest of the round, or get killed for trying to keep the offenders out. And if you manage to stun one guy down, you can't kill him because "you have more ways to do it the right way", and they are about to fuck you up.

    What Cactus said is that you are free to strip/cuff every officer that arrests you for no matter how legitimate the arrest is. And being naked with no way to continue your job is totally not game ruining for those who wished to play as security.
    QuantumWings, JPR and Flatoftheblade like this.
  19. JPR

    JPR Well-Known Member

    I guess my biggest problem is how space law is NOT a shield for officers, but rather criminals.
    Another thing I'd like to see is PM'ing the prisoner first and asking WHY he think's he was arrested. THEN PM the officer with the reasons he gave. If they match, great! Officer responds "OK", all is well. If they DON'T match, the officer can clarify, and if there is a BIG discrepancy the prisoner SHOULD have noticed (Had cap's ID and egun, said was prisoned ONLY for breaking and entering cap's quarters), the admin can explain, and if it seems to be malicious lying... take appropriate action.
  20. Flavo

    Flavo Well-Known Member

    This conversation is going way to fast for me. Like i'm typing out these responses and JPR is beating me to em.
    JPR likes this.

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