Discussion in 'Announcements' started by WellingtonTheThird, Jan 10, 2015.
ITT: No one will ever listen .-.
Edit: So much for the rule rewrite.
Adding in more restrictions and elaborations to the rules will not bring the players freedom.
The rules being more open to admin interpretation and ability to intervene does not make them more open for griefers to have their way. We're here to protect the player's ability to play and we shall do just that.
The rules being open to admin interpretation =/= The rules being open to griefer interpretation.
After a long chat with TheOdysseyGamer added a line to Rule 1 to encourage curious players to adminhelp and ask what is considered borderline grief. We came to the mutual understanding that it is better to talk it out with a player to insure they understand than to list a couple of examples.
Added a foreword encouraging players to adminhelp for more elaboration and clarity into the rules in general and specifically where they are open to admin interpretation to encourage player-admin interaction.
That's a rather skewed interpretation of what I said. In some cases, size is great, but we swiftly discovered that in the case of rules it's really not so great. The issue before was a set of highly convoluted rules that people could pick holes in and twist to suit their justifications to any gripes an administrator may have had. Yes, you'd think longer, more detailed rules would be better overall, but it really just gave griefers and rabble-rousers more to twist and bend at will which is massively problematic overall. That was annoying and when it was literally there in text it was a bit hard to argue against without causing even more issues. A set of rules that our own administrators didn't even understand clearly weren't working.
These rules allow less room to wiggle, in my opinion. It's difficult to cite anything and twist it to suit any specific justification. There's no room to really pluck out wild interpretations in a desperate attempt to act coy or dodge punishment. Yes, they require administrator to take more initiative towards punishment, and that's fine. There's going to be a constant effort to crack down in general because I'm quite sure acting with our old mentality of SEEING THe beST IN EVERYONE!!! is literally doing us no favours whatsoever at this point and is quite counter-productive.
If you can't trust the people that dedicate a wealth of time to keeping the server pleasant, only for them to be mercilessly scolded by the community, the other administrators, and myself the moment they do something even slightly incorrect or outside of administrator expectations, I'm not sure what you want me to tell you. At this point, I'm inclined to say your reluctance to ever trust administrators ever is your issue to address as opposed to ours. We're doing our best.
I would really like to see some good examples of this.
Considering the current state of things that's kind of sad. The occasional announcement for something that never comes and the niche pandering towards the loudest mouths isn't doing it for me anymore, I'm sorry. When I play LS13 it is not because it is LS13, its because its the place I know that has SS13.
I can't articulate what I'm trying to convene so I'll leave it at that in hopes you understand.
Personally I really like playing security at times, but officers shouldn't be placed under a banned hammer for petty theft of all things. Officers should be looked at with some respect in-game, but they shouldn't be expected saints, and bad ones get banned. If it's petty theft it should be dealt in game, not them randomly giving back the stuff.
The Harm Criminals can also be used against officers when chasing a criminals, accident harmbatoning, or facing hostile armed forces that are dangerous. This rule also kills one of the question in Perseus on how to respond to a abusive HoS, killing the experience other players can have with dealing with this HoS. It also kills the possibility for officers to use of force in interrogation that can lead up to great RP or shitty RP, but is great RP not worth it? I figure someone going say we are "Light RP" where not forcing people to RP, but when did "Light RP" mean RP is not allowed?
Granted even with these rules I will still play, but less likely as a officer.
There should be some sort of footnote in the rules exactly for this kind of thing... because they aren't rules so much as they are guidelines of playing here
This isn't a "if you do something, auto ban." i will never ban someone for an accident. and of course if your officer and you use lethal force within reason (use of deadly force clause in space law) ill most likely be ok with it. Hulk bashing your fellow officer and you shoot the hulk down? no issue.
I like the new rules.
They are more polished and easier to grasp, they have more clarity.
Making 12 pages of rules to describe every situation that can happen in SS13 would be stupid and useless.
The game is made out to be random, anything can happen. That's why they encourage this: "If there are any questions press F1 and ask an admin for help."
The rules themselves clarify exactly what should and shouldn't be done, most of the cases some of you are describing can and probably will be clarified by admins in the event they happen.
But at the same time, there are indeed some things that should be specified, like adding some examples of what borderline grief is just so players can grasp the idea a bit better.
In the end just remember that they are doing their best, they have taken your input, They listened to the community.
They want you to have fun, they're not here to make your game worst.
We've banned people for it. I'm not gonna pull out names of people, but a more specific answer is if you look in the shoutbox. Someone murderboned lowpop and refused to call the shuttle. I gave him a warning, explained how his behavior was negative, and made a note of it on his account. It started off as a simple suggestion not to do that, but his poor attitude in regards to it resulted in a warning and note since he clearly had intentions to continue his actions in the future.
this looks good but only read rules 1-1.1 kek
I think this is a very fair point in hindsight. We'll see if we can revise the rule for a bit more clarity because some freedom in the cases you mentioned should probably be allowed and the current rule does sort of prohibit that.
Thanks! We'll discuss and swap it with a new iteration shortly.
Looks like more than one person has issues with rule 10, though for different reasons. Unlike Keone2, I'm not so worried about not being able to steal things as security, but I am about how under the new rules security is not forced to follow space law. So they can legitimately completely ignore brig procedures, strip people in the middle of hallways and whatnot? I'm sure that is not your intent, so a re-word of the rules wold come in very handy.
I also feel iffy about this. It is nice to have a small constitution-like document providing the major guidelines of what LLA's philosophy is, but at some point we need a document stating some clear and usual DOs and DON'Ts, and even decisions that have been taken on less usual cases. It's all about legal safety.
Could you headmins explain me if this will be a constitution-like document, and there will be another more expansive, or if the idea is something different?
I am no headmin but i will try my best to explain this. these are guidelines (and always have been)
as keyword has said, this game is made out to be random. If your intentions are pure you should be fine, use common sense, use the rules as a guideline. Finding ways to ruin the game within the rules wont be tolerated.
Maybe. Maybe not. We don't really know. Unfortunately, the more we add of our 'Do's and Don'ts' to any specific list, the more material people have to cause problems. If we did have one, it'd likely be for administrators and would be stored privately for them to view, otherwise griefers and trouble makers will pick holes in it to validate actions, and mouthy forum rabble rousers will start even more crusades when we don't bestow the harshest of punishments upon someone for whatever reason despite it being listed in the document of 'BAD THINGS' that you suggest.
Ideally, it'd be a super handy tool, but I have no confidence whatsoever that it won't be taken and used against us and just become something massively detrimental if we slap it across the public forums. It really is something worth considering though I think.
The issue is that, from a player's perspective, we never know what we can and what we cannot do. Not everything is black-or-white. We have to go with answers like "X says that Y, back in his time, ruled Z". I understand your side of the coin, but please also try to take in account the player's too.
Alright here is my 50 cents
Rules are fine. Not too strict that it becomes annoying to play and not too loose where it starts loosing the fun. I am fine with the way the rules are and how the players and admins approach them.
One note that I would tweak
Rule 2.) This is a friendly game environment. You're allowed to be mean or negative IC as a non-antagonistI don't want people to think that it is okay to spend an entire round bullying 1 person for no reason (that is OOC related or not) because if all somebody does one round is follow you around and call you and asshole it would probably ruin the round
But Other then that I am fine with everthing
A suggestion that will get shot down:
If you are an engineer, and do not know how to set up the sing, you will be jobbanned from engineering until you know how to do it.
there isn't an excuse not to know how to do it, and too many rounds are ended early because of shitgineers who grab insulateds and multitools and dart out of engineering as fast as they can
A ban until they learn for not knowing a game mechanic? how do they learn?
Welling ton i don't know if you rember this but we rewrote the rules last time in an attempt to curb admin interpretation. Why because before hand we had some major inconsistency with the rule set. While crow may allow stun stripping Flavored cactus may see it as a bannable offense. And in fact this was an issue brought up a LONG LONG TIME AGO!!! I believe aqua ruled that it was not bannable because their round was not ruined you could have fun after being stripped naked and tossed down disposals. In his defence he was right and wrong. Some people could and others could not. I was in the catagorey that could not. Not only did we have much more border line grief back with the older ruleset.
And in your own words wellington
WellingtonTheThird said: ↑
Carl as you may have realized (And I'm sure you have from your posts on the forums) the rules seem to get us nowhere at the moment and it seems a large portion of our playerbase could possibly be willing to switch to a new set of rules.
When I say player I don't mean people who just troll the entire time on the game and never participate on the forums or interact with the fellow players.
I mean the faces I see everyday that truly love this server and want the best for it.
Players like you, Carl.
For this reason I've decided to contact you and see if you'd be willing to work on a project with me..
This project involves creating four sets of comprehensive rules with the only basis being: No RP, Light RP, Medium RP, and Heavy RP. Of course some of our rulesets will be instantly rejected, but this gives us a chance to allow the players to have a hand in picking their server rules.
We could create rules that embody the spirit of LLA gaming and in the end the players would get what they want. I think you and I both know that changing the rules up a bit could possibly be very beneficial to the server, but also possibly detrimental.
I'd like to undergo this project with you and a few others, but I'd like to keep the ratio of people working on the project to be 50/50 player to admin so we have fair representation and I chose you first because I view you as a speaking representative for our playerbase often times.
Together I think we could accomplish something great.
It might take a little bit of time to get this ball rolling and we would have to convince the higher-ups it is a good idea, but I have trouble believing that the other admins would deny the players the right to choose the rules they want to see on the server.
Power to the people.
I await your response with bated breath friend.
there are other servers that use the same source as we do
not to mention I was able to learn how to set it up by reading the wiki page only
it isn't a difficult guide to follow
Separate names with a comma.